Unacceptable

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Izzy

Deputy Minister
#21
I have no problem with Prim blocking Olde Delaware on Discord, a platform on which virtually no actual legislative business takes place.

Prim saying that he had "no obligation to respond" means that his inbox is open, but he gets to use discretion on what messages he responds to. In theory, I have no problem with that. I would assume that Senator Prim would respond to any message relating to Senate business or constituent affairs. What he's reserving the right to do, is ignore messages of a personal nature, or that pertain to the many, many disputes we've seen spill into public. I have absolutely no problem with that.

Now, if Olde Delaware—or anyone—revealed publicly that they had contracted Prim as a constituent, or any elected representative, and hadn't heard back, I think that's a very fair complaint to bring into the view. And voters can assess that complaint for what it is. But no, I have no problem with someone saying that they will use discretion on what messages they respond to.
If Senator Prim did not intend to mean that his obligation doesn't exist when the citizen's concerns are legitimate, that is entirely a different matter. However, that is not what he said. I tried to get clarity in regard to that statement and Senator Prim, perhaps characteristically, did not respond, although he did respond to several other comments after that. As far as I can tell at this time, he's willingly ignored my question.
 
#22
If Senator Prim did not intend to mean that his obligation doesn't exist when the citizen's concerns are legitimate, that is entirely a different matter. However, that is not what he said. I tried to get clarity in regard to that statement and Senator Prim, perhaps characteristically, did not respond, although he did respond to several other comments after that. As far as I can tell at this time, he's willingly ignored my question.
Maybe you should've waited for clarification before making an extremely narrow and bizarre interpretation of a broad, and fair comment?
 
#24
Maybe a senator should choose their words more carefully?
Perhaps, in hindsight, he would have if he knew that you would bizarrely use his statement to generate an overly-antagonistic article painting him as a snake-oil salesman rather than a Europeian citizen.

It is clear you were foaming at the mouth for a political opportunity to take a hit against Comrade Prim and reform efforts. You paint the picture for us with the heavy rhetoric in your article.

This whole circus show is ridiculous and laughable. We should expect better.
 

Pierce

Vice President
#25
I implore Comrade Prim to not resign his senatorial seat over a non-issue. He has been more-than-willing to openly debate the issues facing our region in a public-facing manner, with both citizens who agree and disagree with him. He should not take this overly-aggressive and opportunistic article to heart.
In agreement with this. While I appreciate the discussion for activity, I think there have been some serious extrapolations made here as a part of a personal vendetta against Prim specifically. While I disagree with parts of their approach, Senators Kari and Prim should carry on as Senator, but the discussion of the ethics of blocking citizens without the extrapolations into personal ability is a conversation that I feel is worth having that reflects the RL debate going on about US politicians' accessibility to the public.
 
#26
In Europeia it is no secret that there is conflict. Some paint it broadly, claiming that it is a fight between political ideals and others claim it to be a much smaller issue, with squablling between parties. Before I had even finished reading this article I was receiving word from concerned citizens about the controversial nature of this article.

Reading it and listening to others I find one thing to be clear, many recognize the reality that is sometimes some people are best left unheard. This is a simple and sad fact of reality, it is better for one man to get sick than an entire nation and as such it is important that the vile statements of one sometimes be prevented from spreading. It is neccesary, for the glory of Europeia to be preserved, that some citizens and the plagues that they seek to spread to be cut off entirely or at minimum limited. It is vital that they be cut off. Their communications should be either severed entirely or cleaned of ideas that pose a threat to the region.

However, this does not by any means mean that these "Senators" were acting correctly. What they have done is not stop the spreading of anti-Europeian messages, they have simply ignored the problem and prevented any means they had of seeing the scale of it. Arguably, they were doint this while spreading Godless messages of their own. However, some of the logic in their actions should not be ignored. If Europeia is to remain strong it is vital that radicals and their ideas be shut off.
 

Izzy

Deputy Minister
#27
Perhaps, in hindsight, he would have if he knew that you would bizarrely use his statement to generate an overly-antagonistic article painting him as a snake-oil salesman rather than a Europeian citizen.

It is clear you were foaming at the mouth for a political opportunity to take a hit against Comrade Prim and reform efforts. You paint the picture for us with the heavy rhetoric in your article.

This whole circus show is ridiculous and laughable. We should expect better.
What's ridiculous is the way that anyone who is opposed to legislative reforms is painted as an obstructionist villain until they're silenced. We should expect and deserve better than that. I will not be silenced regardless of the rhetoric used against me.

While I appreciate the discussion for activity, I think there have been some serious extrapolations made here as a part of a personal vendetta against Prim specifically.
I want to make sure that this is crystal clear. I have no personal vendetta or bad feelings for Prim. What I take issue with is his actions and words while in office. There is no malicious intent in my heart whatsoever for Prim personally. It is purely political.
 

Sopo

Lord High Chancellor Emeritus
#28
What's ridiculous is the way that anyone who is opposed to legislative reforms is painted as an obstructionist villain until they're silenced. We should expect and deserve better than that. I will not be silenced regardless of the rhetoric used against me.
You're the one who came out guns blazing. I'm not sure how you're also playing the victim?
 
#29
In Europeia it is no secret that there is conflict. Some paint it broadly, claiming that it is a fight between political ideals and others claim it to be a much smaller issue, with squablling between parties. Before I had even finished reading this article I was receiving word from concerned citizens about the controversial nature of this article.

Reading it and listening to others I find one thing to be clear, many recognize the reality that is sometimes some people are best left unheard. This is a simple and sad fact of reality, it is better for one man to get sick than an entire nation and as such it is important that the vile statements of one sometimes be prevented from spreading. It is neccesary, for the glory of Europeia to be preserved, that some citizens and the plagues that they seek to spread to be cut off entirely or at minimum limited. It is vital that they be cut off. Their communications should be either severed entirely or cleaned of ideas that pose a threat to the region.

However, this does not by any means mean that these "Senators" were acting correctly. What they have done is not stop the spreading of anti-Europeian messages, they have simply ignored the problem and prevented any means they had of seeing the scale of it. Arguably, they were doint this while spreading Godless messages of their own. However, some of the logic in their actions should not be ignored. If Europeia is to remain strong it is vital that radicals and their ideas be shut off.
+1
 

Izzy

Deputy Minister
#30
You're the one who came out guns blazing. I'm not sure how you're also playing the victim?
It's not just about me and for any who might suggest that there's no basis for the claim that more moderate voices are lashed out at, I would point you back to my presidential campaign, and OD's Senate campaign, which both had their stances radically mischaracterized by critics in such a way as to be detrimental to the campaigns. Hardliner reformists, such as HEM, who has stated he will not vote for anyone who doesn't support legislative reform, are well aware of the weight their influence brings and threw that weight against us without any hesitation. Some people who are on the fence about legislative reform, as well as newcomers, may support it simply because HEM, the founder, does and so therefore it must be what's best for the region. I disagree that the legislative reform is what's best for the region and each time I've tried to voice my concerns, those concerns have been dismissed as "baseless" by those who know how to wield their political influence.

I watched Equilism die with a restrictive Senate. We changed the constitution and I watched Equilism die again with an inclusive direct democracy. The current system in Europeia is a functioning, although admittedly ill, middle ground between those two fates. The problem isn't the structure, it's the lack of participation. It's not our legislature that's broken, it's our citizens. A heart needs blood to pump.
 
#31
It is purely political
Thanks for explaining the stench of political opportunism in this article.

I do not doubt that you have Europeia's best interests in mind, and I respect that, but am concerned in the antagonistic and overly-aggressive manner in which you pursued this article. The heavy-handed rhetoric targeting Comrade Prim comes off as unnecessary. It muddles your argument because it comes off as a political pot-shot against reform and Prim rather than serious criticism of Prim blocking OD. Your comment above seems to reinforce that.

Perhaps it is just me, but I do not see a problem with HEM throwing support in one direction or another based on what he believes is best for the region. He may be the founder, but he is also a citizen and a politician of the republic. We should not hold it against a Senator to voice his feelings publicly and explain why he would refuse to vote for a candidate. As a citizen, of course he would want a candidate that better represents his viewpoints to be elected; that is natural. We should not hold it against him for pursuing what he believes is best for the region.
 

Lethen

Welcome to the new forums! Same Lethen though...
#32
Izzy, would you like a stool or step-ladder? To better reach for those straws you're trying to grasp.

Laughable that you're trying to twist Prim's decision to block OD to fit into some anti-reform narrative.
 

Kari

Senator. Ave Imperator Hominis. Talos is not a god
#33
Also, this really wasn't an "exposure", as both Prim and Kari have said they've blocked OD in #eurochat and the EBC radio chat on Mixlr.
Just to clarify as this can be read 2 ways; I do not have OD blocked on Mixlr chat.
 
#34
Some people who are on the fence about legislative reform, as well as newcomers, may support it simply because HEM, the founder, does and so therefore it must be what's best for the region.
This might, might be even more absurd than the original argument here lol.

I have been for reform for years, originally proposing the idea in 2012 and pushing for it several different times over the last half-decade. All of those times I pushed, conservatives won, even though I was the "founder."
 
#35
This might, might be even more absurd than the original argument here lol.

I have been for reform for years, originally proposing the idea in 2012 and pushing for it several different times over the last half-decade. All of those times I pushed, conservatives won, even though I was the "founder."
Agreed with this. Anyone who has seen HEM speaks up knows he's about change, usually in a big way, and not always supported. In fact, sometimes that change has been not supported and tabled. Me and him had a pretty big throwdown one time when he was Senator. It's one of my fonder memories of Europeia.
 
#36
Yea the idea HEM brings some kind of heavy weight determinant political force for this particular reform is a significant stretch. The number of times I have been on a side of opposition to a HEM idea, usually the winning side, is likely in the dozens. The winds for reform changed around HEM with likely little or no impact on his part.
 
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#37
Yea the idea HEM brings some kind of heavy weight determinant political force for this particular reform is a significant stretch. The number of time I have been on a side of opposition to a HEM idea, usually the winning side, is likely in the dozens. The winds for reform changed around HEM with likely little or no impact on his part.
if we still had signatures this would go in my sig
 

Sopo

Lord High Chancellor Emeritus
#38
I think there's a difference between politicians using their clout to support a cause and a group actually being silenced. Disagreement is not silencing. No one prevented you, Izzy, from running on your ideals in the presidential campaign, just as no one prevented OD from running on his ideals in the Senate by-election. Fierce and determined opposition is to be expected when it comes to issues people are passionate about, especially when you're in the seeming minority, swimming upstream. I understand your frustration and the frustration of other folks who oppose the current reform proposal, but the best weapon you have in your arsenal is mobilizing like-minded individuals and speaking eloquently about your beliefs.

I'm frustrated with the tone taken on these issues by people on both sides of the argument and wish everyone would simply articulate their beliefs rather than trying to throw labels and generalizations on everyone. This process is hugely important to the future of the region and we cannot afford to focus on immaterial things that divide us.
 
#39
The idea that Prim should resign is laughable.

That said, given the animus between OD and Prim, I don’t have the same generous inference as HEM regarding the language Prim used.
 

Johnny Costello

Chairman of the CA
#40
I myself as perhaps one of the Moderate Reform standard (leaders, Idk if I lead this I'm just in the party lol) I can say that I have not been silenced. I may have choosen myself not to comment on such things I found I had no good response for as of yet but I have yet to be publicly silenced.

the comments I've seen made against Prim and Kari are kinda heavy handed and a bit too far for one to say. We are discussing reform not, He said She said, this should be something we work towards not against. Although Kari may be mean at times she is a member of our community and we should treat her as such. disagree of course but there is no need to go as far as saying she should be banned. As for Prim. I like Prim, also his cute avatar, but seriously guys lets grow up and work for a cause not to tear each other apart.

also (Your reforms are too much. :p )
 
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