Reform Report #1: Polling Shows Deep Disapproval of Current Reforms

#21
There have now been I believe four polls on the topic of reform, and this one is the only one standing apart from the others. Including this very recent, and rather striking poll that showed broad support for some pretty specific ideas.

My suspicion is that people haven't wildly swung away from supporting those ideas, but that there's a lot of negativity around "reform" that has built over the last few weeks. This process has become too fractious, and I'm not completely sure how it got there?

I've been starting a consistent stream of topics in the Constitutional Convention for folks to chime in. I've been launching polls and asking questions. I'm not even 100% married to the proposal I spent hours writing up and editing.

In light of this poll, I am more than willing to take an extra step back and hear people out. But if the "moderate" vision here is no legislative reform, I can't get onboard with that.
 

Kari

Senator. Ave Imperator Hominis. Talos is not a god
#22
Also the idea that UV "stacked" this poll is laughable. As I previously mentioned UV made this poll very accessible and advertised it frequently on Discord, he was hardly trying to ensure that only moderates and anti-reformers took it. The last poll we had on reform was a long time ago so it is not inconsivable that public opinion has changed since then. Indeed most evidence suggests that support for major reform is falling, OD doing better than I think most were expecting in the Senate by-election and the formation of a party calling for moderate reform. Instead of attempting to discredit polling that shows clear distaste towards the currently proposed reform, we should be working towards the moderate reform that the region clearly wants.
No one is suggesting UV stacked it. The theory is that someone (or someones) may have created duplicate emails and stacked the responses in that manner.
 
#23
There are multiple members of the region joining a "moderate" party that wants to slow reform down (idk how much slower it can get lol). There's been a lot of drama surrounding reform in the last week. I'm assuming the poll is legit, but the numbers are "soft" because this would be such a radical whiplash in the other direction.
 
#24
I don't think anyone is arguing that UV "stacked" this poll intentionally. With multiple pro-reform people noting they did not take the poll I thought It was necessary to start another poll and try to make it as representative as possible by 1) leaving it open for longer and 2)Doing more to aggressively advertise it. I have even reached out to both political organizations to ask that they poke their members to take the poll as well to further get as representative poll as possible. The link to take that poll is for the record https://goo.gl/forms/3mD2lsEZSkd1YOnl1
No one is suggesting UV stacked it. The theory is that someone (or someones) may have created duplicate emails and stacked the responses in that manner.
Ah hem

I also find the frankly insane difference between this and all of the other polls regard reform to be extremely concerning, if there was a gradual trend that lead to this massive difference it would be credible. As it stands it appears as if the poll was stacked, this is also likely given the huge amount of responses for a poll that was only open for 9 hours as it has a comparable number of them to ones that are often open for a week.
 
#27
Big difference.

She is still attempting to claim that this poll was stacked with no evidence to prove as such.
Why are the results of UV's poll yesterday so wildly different from even UV's poll on the forum today?
http://europeians.com/forum/index.php?threads/reform-poll.10044682/

Both polls have been open for a similar amount of time now. This forum poll is showing around 53% support for this current reform proposal with 40% opposed. How is this poll so wildly differing from UV's poll yesterday that showed overwhelming opposition with little support?

Also, you've done polling for a long time, Punch. Most polls of 20-30 people tend to get 3-5 comments -- UV's poll was open for 9 hours and received 10 comments out of 20 votes.

Two of those comments, which were back to back, commented that Kari should be banned from Euro.
Three of the comments later in the poll used an odd set phrase "reform talks".
These are some signs that there may have been some multiple vote spoofing being done by respondents (not UV).

There are some red flags here with UV's poll that should not be dismissed.

Polling on the forum is solid, it would be very difficult for people to vote multiple times. With google docs, it's much easier for people to spoof multiple accounts and vote multiple times.
 
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#28
Big difference.

She is still attempting to claim that this poll was stacked with no evidence to prove as such.
In addition to what Prim noted, I have reached out to UV for access to the excel results as that will give some more indicative data on whether there was infact multi-voting in this poll.
 

Lethen

Welcome to the new forums! Same Lethen though...
#29
There's certainly a lot of discussion going on here but I want to highlight both of these comments:
Kari is mean, aggressive and should be banned for being so toxic.

Senator Kari is very rude, I think she has to tone it down or face ban by the administrative team
Based on the ongoing discussion about the veracity of the results, I'm left with two scenarios from the above comments. Either (1) there are some players who don't seem to understand the OOC vs. IC differences when it comes to administrative bans; or (2) this was a comment left by the same player - or players? - who "stacked" the poll as is suggested in an attempt to really go after Kari.

For (1), that's just a matter of approaching the admins (obviously it will be handled anonymously) and talking over the differences between IC bans and OOC bans that are much more serious in nature. I don't want anyone thinking that we're the kind of region or Admin team that bans players for political, personal reasons, etc. However, for (2), if my suspicions are correct how dare you. To attempt to weaponize administrative bans and suggest their use to ban a player that is rude or aggressive or what-have-you is not only offensive and frustrating, but its beyond disgusting when you consider that it undermines everything the Admin Team works towards to keep our community safe. On top of that, it undermines the stories and truths that any Europeians have lived and told if they were victims of players given an OOC administrative ban for very serious offenses.

I have my own thoughts on reform, and I have my own thoughts on the tact - of lack thereof - used by both those in favor of reform and against it. But there is absolutely no place for suggesting a player be banned for in-character reasons in a poll about reform efforts. Of course, this isn't a rebuke from the entire Admin team and they are all free to disagree. For me personally though, I'll reiterate what I said above: how dare you. This is nothing but inappropriate.
 
#30
I agree with Lethen 100% and with my admin hat on. It looks like several people are conflating IC and OOC and maybe need to take a step back and analyze the difference between the in game and outside of game. These kind of things worry me because they tend to blow up.

Please seek out an admin, any you feel comfortable with, and speak to us if you have concerns!
 
#31
I'll piggyback on this and agree that it is inappropriate, but to play Devil's Advocate I know for a fact that this isn't the only complaints that I've personally seen regarding this specific person and specifically on this topic. It seems like the person who made these specific complaints whoever they are doesn't understand how this works, the separation of ooc and ic.

May I make a suggestion?

It would probably be really good if the admins could make an announcement on that fact or a chat wide announcement for the people who just do social side to understand that the admins aren't here to regulate stuff that happens in the IC world. It would be a good refresher and informative for the new folks.
 
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Kari

Senator. Ave Imperator Hominis. Talos is not a god
#32
Kari meant that the poll appeared stacked by respondents, not UV --
I was making the point that Prim mentions. At no point have I said or implied that I believe that UV tampered with the poll, nor do I.
Big difference.

She is still attempting to claim that this poll was stacked with no evidence to prove as such.
Given just how drastically different the responses are from even UV's other poll on the forums and how out of character the levels of participation in the poll for it's very short time being public before publication are; how can you not also be questioning it?
 
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#33
I was making the point that Prim mentions. At no point have I said or implied that I believe that UV tampered with the poll, nor do I.


Given just how drastically different the responses are from even your other poll on the forums and how out of character the levels of participation in the poll for it's very short time being public before publication are; how can you not also be questioning it?
Something about pots and kettles..
 

Lethen

Welcome to the new forums! Same Lethen though...
#34
Something about pots and kettles..
To quote CSP, "could you fucking not?"

For someone that always talks about taking the higher ground in threads like this, you just can't leave well-enough alone. Stop taking potshots and maybe your critics will stop going after you.
 

Sopo

Lord High Chancellor Emeritus
#37
Like many others, I was not around yesterday to take this poll--and I'm surprised that a 12 hour poll got 20 responses while the EBC's approval poll was open much longer (and was frequently advertised) only received 14. I am interested to see how the forum version ultimately compares.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. We know most folks want reform, including legislative reform but it does seem there is a fairly large group of yet-to-be-determined size that opposes the current iteration. As I said in my speech, everyone needs to take a deep breath and shut off the attitudes. We're not going to get anywhere with the sniping I've seen in this thread and elsewhere.
 
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