High Court Rules in High Profile Case




High Court Rules in High Profile Case
Europeia v. Grizzli
Written by Matthew Williams








(Europeia, June 19 2018) - The High Court, in recent days, handed down a ruling in the Europeia v. Grizzli case. A court cause which caught the attention of many in the region and caused a very lively and active discussion in Public Gallery.

The case was in relation to Grizzli, a former CA Chair and Senator in the region, lying on their citizenship application as Airbus and on the most recent return to the original Grizzli name. Whether the crime was committed or not was not up for discussion, as Grizzli pled guilty. The question and subsequent debate were over how tough the punishment for the crime should be. The Attorney General in his opening remarks asked for the maximum penalty for both crimes a 6-month ban for each crime to be carried out concurrently for a total of 6 months of punishment.

Grizzli defended himself in court and was originally planning to not post an argument but after the Attorney General recommended the maximum punishment he posted his own argument. In what may have been a surprise for some or not surprise to others he posted a seemingly well thought out and well-formatted argument tying his case to others such as Europeia v. JayDee which was a very similar case and received a punishment that was not the maximum punishment. Over in the Public Gallery, the discussion was lively in of itself. Most people agreed that perhaps a punishment of 6 months for each crime was a bit over the top as in Europeia v. JayDee, JayDee received a punishment much less than that. Some were saying that due to his past contributions to the region and potential future potential his sentence should be lightened as to “not rob the region of such potential” however some, like Aramor, said "I don't understand this sentiment - why should people get more relaxed punishments just because we think they're "valuable"? I'd hope in instances like these the law would remain impartial and enforce decisions and consequences, not (inherently arbitrary and biased) judgments of an individual's productivity."

Both the defense and prosecution gave its final arguments on June 7 before the High Court went into deliberation to come to a verdict on the case at hand. On June 12 the presiding Justice, The Rt. Hon. Darcness, delivered the verdict of the court. The court, in line with both the claims of the prosecution and admission of guilt from the defendant, found Grizzli guilty of both counts of lying on a citizenship application. The recommendation of the Attorney General of a 6 month concurrent ban was perhaps the base of the punishment given as the court sentenced Grizzli to 3 months of a ban for the first crime and 4 months for the second crime a grand total of 7 months, which is 5 months less than what the maximum sentence would have been. The Court also ordered Grizzli to be stripped of his citizenship but also stated that when his sentence is completed he shall be allowed to reapply for citizenship and the government should treat it as any normal citizenship application. The Court in explaining their ruling cited Grizzli's apparent lack of remorse for the crime he committed with Darcness saying in his ruling "And yet, that same admission of guilt included interspersed claims that no law was broken, and also that this same law would be broken in the future. He even claims that eight months is all it would take to violate this same law again. The Court is forced to wonder, at such an admission, if eight months is what it would take for Grizzli to learn a lesson as well."

However, not everyone was happy with the verdict. Some called it over the top and extreme. Such as HEM who said " This verdict is overly harsh and not what I had in mind when I encouraged Grizzli to return. Very disappointing, and slightly befuddling, ruling from Justice Darcness." Others called it unjust and even called into question of how the judiciary should work and what should be expected of such judiciary with Sen. Prim saying "...This sort of retributive justice is not what I value in our judiciary.". Some, however, did come to the defense of the judiciary with the Attorney General, Drecq, saying "Calling justice retributive simply because you disagree with it is perhaps not the best position to take." Grizzli has however been given the chance to come back at the end of his ban and perhaps then we will see if he is truly remorseful for the crimes he committed.



 
Drecq said:
Somewhat more succinctly put than me.

Edit: I agree. Though I can see the other side. When one creates something one feels a protectiveness of it. An author or editor could certainly feel like an article should spark a certain discussion and feel disappointed when the audience goes a different way. That is part of the creation of anything made for public consumption of course and shouldnt cause the creation of a control mechanism to force the discussion to go the way one wants, but it is still an understandable reaction.
To be honest I am less concerned about the fact that the discussion was off topic and more concerned with the massive quote pyramid which is in effect spam even if the content included is not.

EDIT: I believe I have seen similar quote pyramids requested to cease and desist in other areas of the forum previously. They take up an excessive amount of space for no particular reason.
 
GraV’s request was not unreasonable, as the discussion was not of any consequence, nor were individuals were attempting to express sincere thoughts, political ideas, or other forms of speech that are generally protected. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the EBC saying “please don’t spam the forum,” which is what most of those posts with excessive quoting amounted to. Indeed, the entire scheme was the excessive quoting rather than attempting to truly express thoughts or ideas.

You can say the speech was protected as free speech, and technically you'd probably be correct. But it was also clearly spam, and I think the minister let it go long enough before stepping in and saying "Ok everyone, you had your fun. Please don't spam anymore."

I'm not looking to debate the merits of free speech, but to somehow imply that GraV is completely in the wrong or that what was being said was somehow of consequence and should be protected misses the mark, imo.
 
The quote system and resulting quote pyramids are a part of both the region's culture and the dynamic of discussion on the forum. Attempting to end such practices is in its self limitation of freedom of expression and free speech and could be construed as a method of attempting to censor the discussion due to not liking the direction in which it is going. Any attempts to do so would lead quickly to outcry against them for these reasons and would be an erosion of the principals of democratic values and free thought around which this region is based.
 
I disagree.

It was spam. Like I said, restricting spam is distinct from restricting people from expressing their opinions. That is not an unreasonable stance to take.
 
Not to mention thatd wed have less fun. And its not like our fun stifled an otherwise ongoing debate. It was this or the topic probably goes quiet. I dont see the harm.
 
Spam is expression. it may not be the most nuanced version of it, but it is still expression of ideas in a free and open environment and the quote pyramid does have the potential to lead to other points being raised which may restart the discussion or even birth another, as this one has.
 
Stopping speech, whether constructive or not, if that speech does no harm, is a violation of free speech.
 
The quote system and resulting quote pyramids are a part of both the region's culture and the dynamic of discussion on the forum.
This is simply not true. Quote pyramids are not part of dynamic discussion on the forum. I find it highly unlikely that anyone would be able to find a substantive discussion in the Senate, the Grand Hall or the CA with a 25 post long quote pyramid. Most people simply quote the person ahead of them. Up until JayDee it was funny the quotes were interrelated, and slightly amusing. Once the discussion deviated from the initial joke there was no reason for the quote pyramid to continue. It simply wastes space at that point.
 
Restricting our forum or our regional culture to "the Senate, the Grand Hall or the CA" is just wrong.
 
GraVandius said:
The quote system and resulting quote pyramids are a part of both the region's culture and the dynamic of discussion on the forum.
This is simply not true. Quote pyramids are not part of dynamic discussion on the forum. I find it highly unlikely that anyone would be able to find a substantive discussion in the Senate, the Grand Hall or the CA with a 25 post long quote pyramid. Most people simply quote the person ahead of them. Up until JayDee it was funny the quotes were interrelated and slightly amusing. Once the discussion deviated from the initial joke there was no reason for the quote pyramid to continue.
So due to a change in the discussion from one that you approve of, the discussion should end?
 
Drecq said:
Restricting our forum or our regional culture to "the Senate, the Grand Hall or the CA" is just wrong.
Not what I said Drecq. If you read carefully you'll note that I stated "Quote pyramids are not part of dynamic discussion on the forum.". Those 3 areas are where I would suspect outside of the EBC where "dynamic discussion would take place".

Kari said:
GraVandius said:
The quote system and resulting quote pyramids are a part of both the region's culture and the dynamic of discussion on the forum.
This is simply not true. Quote pyramids are not part of dynamic discussion on the forum. I find it highly unlikely that anyone would be able to find a substantive discussion in the Senate, the Grand Hall or the CA with a 25 post long quote pyramid. Most people simply quote the person ahead of them. Up until JayDee it was funny the quotes were interrelated and slightly amusing. Once the discussion deviated from the initial joke there was no reason for the quote pyramid to continue.
So due to a change in the discussion from one that you approve of, the discussion should end?
Again not what I said. The method of discussion wasted space on the forum which is the definition of spam.
 
GraVandius said:
Drecq said:
Restricting our forum or our regional culture to "the Senate, the Grand Hall or the CA" is just wrong.
Not what I said Drecq. If you read carefully you'll not that I stated "Quote pyramids are not part of dynamic discussion on the forum.". Those 3 areas are where I would suspect outside of the EBC where "dynamic discussion would take place".

Kari said:
GraVandius said:
The quote system and resulting quote pyramids are a part of both the region's culture and the dynamic of discussion on the forum.
This is simply not true. Quote pyramids are not part of dynamic discussion on the forum. I find it highly unlikely that anyone would be able to find a substantive discussion in the Senate, the Grand Hall or the CA with a 25 post long quote pyramid. Most people simply quote the person ahead of them. Up until JayDee it was funny the quotes were interrelated and slightly amusing. Once the discussion deviated from the initial joke there was no reason for the quote pyramid to continue.
So due to a change in the discussion from one that you approve of, the discussion should end?
Again not what I said. The method of discussion wasted space on the forum which is the definition of spam.
Thats half the definition. The wasting of space has to, in the opinion of a reasonable person, not even add a minimum of value. A minimum of value is a very low bar. And enough reasonable people were of the opinion it added that that several continued contributing.
 
Wasting space on a forum with functionally unlimited space for discussion?

The classing of conversation that does not fit your wants as a "waste of space" is troubling. All discussion which does not cause harm should be allowed in a free and open society. You do not need to agree with the content of a post, but you should not be attempting to dictate what can and can not be said when it is not breaching any ethical rules.
 
Thats half the definition. The wasting of space has to, in the opinion of a reasonable person, not even add a minimum of value. A minimum of value is a very low bar. And enough reasonable people were of the opinion it added that that several continued contributing.
Yea so it would'nt hold up in court but that's no reason why I can't ask you politely to stop using a quote pyramid in the sub form to which I am responsible for moderating.
 
When you quote the definition, and even point to it being the definition, the burden is on you to provide the full definition. You cant afterwards shift the goalpost from it being the definition to it being a definition that youd like for your subforum.
 
Attempting to get people to stop using the quote system is in and off its self a restriction on freedom of expression as we know it on the forums.
 
Kari said:
Attempting to get people to stop using the quote system is in and off its self a restriction on freedom of expression as we know it on the forums.
Then sue me. I'm going to have to return to doing what I logged in for this morning which is to edit some upcoming EBC articles.
 
I’m not saying anything beyond a reasonable argument can be made that the excessive quoting (quote pyramid) itself was nothing but spam and that it is not unreasonable to ask to limit spam. That entire conversation could’ve been had without the excessive quoting and nobody’s “free speech” would’ve been impacted. Quoting is not speech in itself, rather it is a forum mechanism to copy what someone else has said. By not quoting, that previous response remains and the poster can still post what they want. Nobody (at least not me) is saying what can and can’t be posted – but there is no need for the quote pyramid and to argue that the quote pyramid itself should be protected is absurd in my opinion. It is very common in forum culture to encourage people NOT to mass requote in such a manner, and to pretend that’s not true just doesn’t hold water.

This is a silly issue to argue about – but reasonable people should be able to see both sides.
 
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