Discord Is Hell

[LeSageStupide]

Let me repeat what I said before on another thread: As hard as it is for some of us to imagine, I do in fact see Discord "replacing" much of the discussion we are used to seeing on the forum, just because such discussion can run so much more efficiently on Discord. In the long run, I really only see the forum being used for large announcements. The forum is the horse, and Discord is the car, I'm afraid. What we need now is just a better framework on how to run things there.

 

[GraVandius]

All we should be worried about is official business of the Senate, Prez ect being moved off the forms. All the fun and backroom deals has always seemed to be offsite since i've been here.

 

[Malashaan]

All we should be worried about is official business of the Senate, Prez ect being moved off the forms. All the fun an backroom deals has always seemed to be offsite since i've been here.

I agree that some back room dealing is fine (in fact, it's a good part of the game). I think overall Discord provides some great benefits. That said, there are problems that arise if information gets lost, or relevant stakeholders are unaware of what is going on. I can think of several examples (both relating to skype and discord) where the region ran into problems because something was discussed and decided by a small group in private, and then when implemented, it was quickly rolled back when others spoke up with concerns; concerns they would have raised per-implementation if they had been aware of the discussion.

The forum provides a level of structure and permanence that Discord cannot. The challenge for us as a region is figuring out where the divide is between Discord-appropriate content and forum-appropriate content.

 

[GraVandius]

All we should be worried about is official business of the Senate, Prez ect being moved off the forms. All the fun an backroom deals has always seemed to be offsite since i've been here.

I agree that some back room dealing is fine (in fact, it's a good part of the game). I think overall Discord provides some great benefits. That said, there are problems that arise if information gets lost, or relevant stakeholders are unaware of what is going on. I can think of several examples (both relating to skype and discord) where the region ran into problems because something was discussed and decided by a small group in private, and then when implemented, it was quickly rolled back when others spoke up with concerns; concerns they would have raised per-implementation if they had been aware of the discussion.

The forum provides a level of structure and permanence that Discord cannot. The challenge for us as a region is figuring out where the divide is between Discord-appropriate content and forum-appropriate content.

So we're in complete agreement?

Official Business should be on the forms. Everything else dosent matter.

 

[Mousebumples]

I think we need to do a much better job of sharing information between Discord servers and the forum. (And, yes, I include myself in that.) When we were on Skype, I tried to do that periodically, but on Discord, if I don't think of it right away, it's a pain in the ass to go back and find the transcript from a few days ago, especially if it's an active chat. Discord really needs to come up with a way to store logs on your computer - and, if that exists already, someone please clue me in.

While I know a lot of people don't care for IRC, that was one of the features there that I really appreciated - being able to search an log on my own computer when I wanted to re-remember something.

 

[Malashaan]

All we should be worried about is official business of the Senate, Prez ect being moved off the forms. All the fun an backroom deals has always seemed to be offsite since i've been here.

I agree that some back room dealing is fine (in fact, it's a good part of the game). I think overall Discord provides some great benefits. That said, there are problems that arise if information gets lost, or relevant stakeholders are unaware of what is going on. I can think of several examples (both relating to skype and discord) where the region ran into problems because something was discussed and decided by a small group in private, and then when implemented, it was quickly rolled back when others spoke up with concerns; concerns they would have raised per-implementation if they had been aware of the discussion.

The forum provides a level of structure and permanence that Discord cannot. The challenge for us as a region is figuring out where the divide is between Discord-appropriate content and forum-appropriate content.

So we're in complete agreement?

Official Business should be on the forms. Everything else dosent matter.

I think so. A lot of the rest of my post was really replying to LeSage's comment that we could start doing almost everything on discord.

 

[Skizzy Grey]

A lot of this article seems like so much "millennial" bitching to me, and more of it reads like complete bullshit.

If you want to form social connections (which too often become political connections) you need to spend an inordinate amount of time shitposting in #EuroChat.

Blantantly false. I have plenty of social connections in Europeia, and I rarely post in Eurochat, and when I do it's 99% of the time to tell people to stop shitposting. I rarely posted in Eurochat when it was on skype either, which was the popular thing back when I first joined, because it was full of people shitposting and I saw no point.

Politically, Discord has made governments more aloof and less organized.

Aside from "HEM had declared it so" do you have any proof of this, or is this just sentimental hogwash?

the fabled Cabinet headquarters now sits mostly empty

Fabled? Really. Someone took his overdramatic pills this morning.

Institutional memory has become more difficult,

possibly the only factual thing you say in this article.

Culturally, Discord has furthered a culture of popularity and cliches over substance and debate. Why bother reading through the threads in the Oval Room if you can just vote for the people with the funny jokes?

is that why you think Skizzy lost? Because he didn't meme hard enough? Not very clued in then, are you? I've been mostly absent from this community for the last six months and even I could see that Skizzy didn't have the forum presence to justify him winning an election. Activity on discord had nothing to do with it.

Do you think XIV won his senate seat because he is full of jokes on discord? Because if you do then you don't know the kid. He barely knew what a meme was before he joined Europeia. Do you think Noto got in because he's a ball of laughs? I'm pretty sure that's an argument you'd never win.

In terms of moderation, Discord is the wild west. Administrators attempt to do their best to enforce community standards, but there is a far-reaching perception that there is no way to create reasonable expectations without infringing on the Charter of Rights.

One or two senators believing this does not make it far reaching, and neither does is make it a catastrophic end of the world situation. Perspective is everything, and you seem to be viewing everything in the absolute worst light possible.

Discord is sapping us of our regional identity and lasting power. Discord is creating a separation in Europeian society and culture. Discord is dark and dreary — the absence of light.

Discord is hell.

The "millennial" thing is silly -- nearly everyone here is a millennial. (I'm pretty sure Deepest House and I are the only active citizens here who were born before 1980. Perhaps a few of our youngest citizens are post-millennial.)

There are good reasons why most tech-savvy people use email, and also send and receive text messages -- the different mediums serve different purposes. Neither is intrinsically superior to the other. Discord and its various forerunners (MSN, Skype, IRC, et al.) are to texting what this forum is to email. Neither platform is intrinsically superior to the other, but each is more suited than the other to certain interactions.

If, in fact, the business of the region is increasingly being handled through text-like interactions on Discord, that's not a good thing. It shouldn't be necessary to explain why that's so -- no social club or business would conduct its affairs in this way. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for chat; it just means that longer-form, deliberative communication still has a place, and calls for a digital format better suited to its needs.

To be clear, this isn't a new issue -- years ago, some Presidents were criticized for running their administrations on MSN. I thought there was validity to those complaints back then; those Presidents were perceived as cliquey, and policy didn't seem to be as well thought out as it was when we had Presidents who seldom used off-site chat. I'm not sure history is repeating itself -- WL and his team seem thoughtful and inclusive -- but the concerns expressed by HEM and others are legitimate, and are not new.

 

[Lethen]

I have voiced most of my concerns with Discord elsewhere (see the Grand Hall), but I'd like to highlight two things:

As HEM noted in this article, this was a "hot take" so of course it may come off as more opinionated and perhaps less-fleshed out than what we're used to. I still enjoyed the read. But let's dispense with the ad hominem attacks, and let's not tell someone to play nice without acknowledging those insults when they've just been insulted by those ad hominem attacks. It goes both ways.

I don't get this region's hatred for Discord [...] If you want to see a region where everything is done on Discord visit TSP. Everything is done on Discord there, whole Ministries in fact are now run in private Discord servers.

Isn't this the biggest argument in favor of addressing how to wrangle the beast and figure out how to best utilize and integrate Discord going forward without our forums and our history, culture, etc. suffering because of it?

 

[Skizzy Grey]

If TSP is running their government on Discord, then Discord must be the best thing ever!! :lol:

 

[Rach]

If TSP is running their government on Discord, then Discord must be the best thing ever!! :lol:

Now I know the real reason HEM hates Discord rly:

 

[HEM]

If TSP is running their government on Discord, then Discord must be the best thing ever!! :lol:

Now I know the real reason HEM hates Discord rly:

Didn't you once run a satire piece attacking me for losing an election in TSP?

 

[Rach]

If TSP is running their government on Discord, then Discord must be the best thing ever!! :lol:

Now I know the real reason HEM hates Discord rly:

Didn't you once run a satire piece attacking me for losing an election in TSP?

Yeah, that piece was kind of mean. Sorry HEM. I always did want you to do well though, I think a HEM led Europeia would have been much better than whatever Glen-Rhodes did to it.

 

[HEM]

If TSP is running their government on Discord, then Discord must be the best thing ever!! :lol:

Now I know the real reason HEM hates Discord rly:

Didn't you once run a satire piece attacking me for losing an election in TSP?

Yeah, that piece was kind of mean. Sorry HEM. I always did want you to do well though, I think a HEM led Europeia would have been much better than whatever Glen-Rhodes did to it.

To be fair, if someone looked at the seven car pileup that was my TSP career and didn't make a joke they were just being overly nice :lol: :lol:

No hard feelings!!

 

[Jahka]

As the perennial lurker of the Red Light district, I will note that our forum culture in that area has certainly declined since Discord became a thing. I would never argue that Republic Square discussions are as important as "official business." However, they still are/were an important part of Europeia, at least to me. It honestly makes me sad to see it decline.

 

[JayDee]

I'm likely going to sound like just a broken record here but the fact of the matter is discord is more convenient, quicker, and easier to navigate. The satisfaction of a quick response versus waiting hours for a response makes discord popular for discussion. It's not any single person's fault, it's human nature. Being rewarded with a reply for things you do, it's a form of addiction. Whether or not it's bad is your opinion .

If you want to fix the problem here's something to start things out. Assign a designated 'note taker' to note down significant discussions on the discord channels. It doesn't have to be word for word, but a good summary of the discussion in a news format might give readers a better idea of how changes come about. Again, just a suggestion, but if you really think it needs fixing then it's a start.

 

[Darcness]

The "millennial" thing is silly -- nearly everyone here is a millennial. (I'm pretty sure Deepest House and I are the only active citizens here who were born before 1980. Perhaps a few of our youngest citizens are post-millennial.)

You can add me to that pre-millennial list.

Neither of us have joined since the rise of Discord. If newer members want to refute my observation, I would welcome their perspective and argument. However, there can be no doubt that a big part of Europeian culture has shifted from the forum to Discord. This means, to be engaged in the region, it's not merely enough to be involved on the forum — you must be involved on Discord as well.

My perspective might be a little skewed (I'm older than most of our members, but I'm a software engineer by trade, so the tech-savvy is strong), but here goes: Social connections are the quickest route to political connections. Most of us will take the 'devil we know' when given the chance. Social interactions factor into value judgments, which factor into voter decisions. This is the way of the world. I think the disconnect here is that some people expect social connections to occur on the forums (as they have since time immemorial), and some expect them in the instant gratification of Discord. And while we continue to have this disconnect, so will our culture split.

Does that change our politics? Slightly, but mostly it just moves them around. Your 'face time' has to happen in two places instead of just one, because your pool of voters is split between the forums and Discord. Interestingly enough, I can see this making political allies more powerful (P/VP tickets come immediately to mind), as one works Discord while the other works the forums to generate as many social connections as possible. WritingLegend and Aexnidaral have done such a great job of this that I don't know how any serious contender could ignore it.

But that's for, as some have put it, 'just shitposting'. Making and keeping friends. Chatter. I was a little surprised to hear that policy decisions were being made in Discord. It's an easy mistake to make, but I believe a mistake nonetheless. Any instant communication venue like Discord is ill-equipped for nuanced discussion. Record-keeping is a nightmare, security and visibility are a pain to administrate.... the weaknesses have been touted repeatedly, by those more eloquent than I.

My social interactions happen on Discord, because it's a better venue for them. My business happens on the Forums, because it's a better venue for it. I go to Discord when I want to just kick up my feet, throw a peanut at the guy who still owes me a beer, and maybe, if the mood strikes, wax philosophical on China buying up the world's supply of sand so they can whip up an island out of nowhere as part of some wacky dystopian plot to overtake the South China Sea. I go to the Forums when I want to have meaningful conversation regarding the state of our region, discuss potential policy and law, or pore over the newly-named hyanygo Law Index. (I only ended up here because I'd heard this thread referenced so many times I decided to go hunt it down.) I go to Discord to play, and I go to the Forums to work.

Is this the 'best thing' for the region? I don't have enough of the perspective of history to say. What I can say is that using the best tool for the job is usually a step in the right direction. Using Discord to make friends and the forums to make decisions sounds like the best tools to me.

 

[Rand]

But let's dispense with the ad hominem attacks,

Have to point this out, I don't think anyone tried to disagree with this article based on who HEM is.

 

[Mousebumples]

But let's dispense with the ad hominem attacks,

Have to point this out, I don't think anyone tried to disagree with this article based on who HEM is.

You do realize that ad hominem attacks refer not to "attacking HEM because he's HEM" but instead to the "attacking the player and not the argument" concept, right? Namecalling is ad hominem.

 

[Jahka]

But let's dispense with the ad hominem attacks,

Have to point this out, I don't think anyone tried to disagree with this article based on who HEM is.

You do realize that ad hominem attacks refer not to "attacking HEM because he's HEM" but instead to the "attacking the player and not the argument" concept, right? Namecalling is ad hominem.

I just reread the thread and I don't see anything that could even loosely be called ad hominem attacks. NK was oddly vitriolic, but HEM took it in stride.

 

[JayDee]

A lot of this article seems like so much "millennial" bitching to me, and more of it reads like complete bullshit.

If you want to form social connections (which too often become political connections) you need to spend an inordinate amount of time shitposting in #EuroChat.

Blantantly false. I have plenty of social connections in Europeia, and I rarely post in Eurochat, and when I do it's 99% of the time to tell people to stop shitposting. I rarely posted in Eurochat when it was on skype either, which was the popular thing back when I first joined, because it was full of people shitposting and I saw no point.

Politically, Discord has made governments more aloof and less organized.

Aside from "HEM had declared it so" do you have any proof of this, or is this just sentimental hogwash?

the fabled Cabinet headquarters now sits mostly empty

Fabled? Really. Someone took his overdramatic pills this morning.

Institutional memory has become more difficult,

possibly the only factual thing you say in this article.

Culturally, Discord has furthered a culture of popularity and cliches over substance and debate. Why bother reading through the threads in the Oval Room if you can just vote for the people with the funny jokes?

is that why you think Skizzy lost? Because he didn't meme hard enough? Not very clued in then, are you? I've been mostly absent from this community for the last six months and even I could see that Skizzy didn't have the forum presence to justify him winning an election. Activity on discord had nothing to do with it.

Do you think XIV won his senate seat because he is full of jokes on discord? Because if you do then you don't know the kid. He barely knew what a meme was before he joined Europeia. Do you think Noto got in because he's a ball of laughs? I'm pretty sure that's an argument you'd never win.

In terms of moderation, Discord is the wild west. Administrators attempt to do their best to enforce community standards, but there is a far-reaching perception that there is no way to create reasonable expectations without infringing on the Charter of Rights.

One or two senators believing this does not make it far reaching, and neither does is make it a catastrophic end of the world situation. Perspective is everything, and you seem to be viewing everything in the absolute worst light possible.

Discord is sapping us of our regional identity and lasting power. Discord is creating a separation in Europeian society and culture. Discord is dark and dreary — the absence of light.

Discord is hell.

But let's dispense with the ad hominem attacks,

Have to point this out, I don't think anyone tried to disagree with this article based on who HEM is.

You do realize that ad hominem attacks refer not to "attacking HEM because he's HEM" but instead to the "attacking the player and not the argument" concept, right? Namecalling is ad hominem.

I just reread the thread and I don't see anything that could even loosely be called ad hominem attacks. NK was oddly vitriolic, but HEM took it in stride.

I think this post by Ninja Kitten might have something to do with people crying ad hominem. While I see it as more of a snappy reply than a blatant attack on HEM's character, I do understand the confusion of others to call this response an ad hominem response.